Marie Claire

Chu Chin-Ning has created a life of achievement and success in the United States. Born in Tianjin in 1949, her family moved to Shanghai and subsequently, Taiwan. She is an international lecturer, corporate trainer, consultant and author of The Chinese Mind Game, The Asian Mind Game and Thick Face, Black Heart. She is considered a leading expert on Asian wisdom, business psyche and strategic winning tactics. CNN regards her as the leading authority on the inner workings of Asian affairs and frequently books her as a guest. Corporate honchos from multi-national giants pay top dollar to hear her. To the Americans, she holds the key to deciphering the mystique of the Orient, while in the East, she is regarded as the successful consultant from the US. Marie Claire's Janet Ong caught up with her when she was in Singapore to participate in a conference.

 

Marie Claire: Under what circumstances did you go to the United States?

Chin-Ning: After I graduated in 1967 at the age of 20, I worked for the US Navy based in Tainan, Taiwan, and that was where I met my husband, Gary. He was a young American kid who had served in the Vietnam War. When he got a transfer back to the US, I decided to marry him because I would lose face if I was left behind. My father was very mad because he disliked Americans. Actually I wasn't very sure if I should marry him but since my father was so furious. I was certain I had to marry him.

 

MC: What happened?

CN: Gary was a very fine man. We were together for six years and separated for one year. He is one year younger than me. We talk but we do not communicate. Being so naive, I didn't even realize that there was a cultural problem and other problems underlying our non- communication. I worked at the bank in the day and at a toy store at night in order that Gary could take an entry-level job at the Stock Exchange. This went on for a year. Then I went back to school. Since my father had always wanted me to be a singerCnot the lounge variety but a classical singerCI decided to study music. He had even wanted me to sing Chinese opera but unfortunately I was too tall. He had always dreamt of becoming a musician so he hoped I would fulfill his dreams. I got 'A's for the course but I didn't have the talent to be something great. I had a sense that I was going to accomplish something but I didn't know what. I was very depressed for a long time. I didn't want to be lying in bed at 80 and dying and wondering what had happened to my dreams.

 

MC: What was the turning point in your life?

CN: The turning point in my life was my divorce. Gary was not very supportive. He only saw me as the woman he had married and nothing else. It was painful but I knew I didn't want to be with my husband anymore. He moved to the east when he got a job at the Chicago Exchange and I stayed behind to sell the house. I met an actor and for a while I lost my head. But actually he was only the catalyst in our divorce. It was a learning experience. I began to question what my life was all about. Sometimes, pain wakes you up. When life is good, you are in blissful ignorance. When something bad happens to you, personally or professionally, then you start to examine your life. It was a confusing and painful period. I was riddled with self-doubt and uncertainties. I was a virgin when I married and so was my husband. When the marriage ended, I started to question my sexuality. I felt so miserable then. I thought even a bad marriage was better than no marriage. I have learned how to live with myself. I have gained a sense of who I am instead of being an extension of someone else, a Mrs. So-and-so. I tried to find out what life was about as a Chinese and a Catholic in a foreign land.

 

MC: How was it different the second time around?

CN: My second husband. Curt, is the one who saw the potential in me. He was the one who told me to write books. He imparts his vision to me. When I finished my first book, he said I should be on CNN. He called them and I was invited to appear on the show. He was also the one who got me on the Larry King show. He is a very positive influence on me. I am fortunate to have Curt. I can be totally unreasonable and I know he will still be there for me.

 

MC: So how did you meet your present husband?

CN: He saw me in a dream 10 years before we met. In his dream, I was wearing a pair of Wrangler jeans and a blue top. I really did have those clothes then. He had never dated Asian women before. He then moved to San Francisco's Chinatown to live in order to find me. So when he first saw me, he recognized me, but I didn't know who he was. I ignored him for over a year because I was involved with an actor, but he was persistent because he knew we were fated to be together.

 

MC: That sounds really romantic. 

 

CN: Well, it does but I find that romance alone does not a relationship make. A relationship should be based on common goals that both parties share. According to some scientific studies, romance is merely a matter of chemistry that scientists are trying to duplicate in the lab. It doesn't last for more than a couple of years. What are you going to do then?

 

"Most women have a head full of trashy dreams. We are conditioned from young to think that way. We get more realistic as we grow older."

 

MC: Do women tend to have more unrealistic expectations of romance? 

 

CN: Yes. Absolutely! Women tend to carry images that were picked up from novels and movies as to what romance is. They want expensive gifts and candlelit dinners but most men don't even know or care about it. Women can't understand why their men can't surprise them with a long-stemmed rose or a gift. In America, the men's idea of a good time is sitting around and watching a football game. Men and women have different expectations. Most women have "a head full of trashy dreams". We are conditioned from young to think that way. We get more realistic as we grow older.

 

MC: What then sustains your relationship with your husband?

CN: Technically, I am not married to Curt. We have lived together for the past 16 years. As we don't have children. I don't find it necessary to have that license.

 

MC: Does that make you feel insecure, knowing he can leave you anytime? 

 

CN: No. In fact the opposite is true. Knowing that your husband or wife can't walk out on you so easily, you tend to take each other more for granted. Also I am very secure about my position in his life. It is my decision whether or not I want to be married. I always have that choice. I just don't find the need for it. He is very good for me. We make up for each other's shortcomings. We have a strong bond. I can call Curt from anywhere in the world and he will be there for me. I suppose you could call it romantic but in a more sophisticated way. It is a very good partnership. The truth is, I am a very practical person although there is a part of me that is romantic too. What's more important than a Prince Charming is someone who has substance and who will make a good partner. Our relationship works because he is very useful to me. He contributes to my life. The truth is that if your relationship with a man is such that you don't contribute to each other's lives, you wouldn't stay together. Ultimately, we all live for ourselves. If someone can make us feel good about ourselves, we like that person. If you can do that, then you fulfill a purpose in my life.

 

MC: That sounds a tad too practical.

CN: Oh no, it is not. Read the book, The Utility Value. It says that all people have to be useful to one another. Even a mother and child relationship is based on that. People always think that mothers are unconditional in their love. That's not true because mothers feel good about themselves in return. When you give, you feel good and selfless.

 

MC: Now that you have become business partners, do you bring your problems from the office back to the home?

CN: As entrepreneurs, we are constantly thinking about work, so it is no different whether we are at home or in the office. I enjoy working with him. He takes care of the business side of things while I do the creative work, like writing books and giving lectures. It is a good partnership. However, that does not mean we do not fight. Little things can irritate, but we have more than romance to fall back on. We have a common objective, that is, we want our business to do well and we have a message we want to share with the world. It makes the daily annoyances easier to deal with.

 

MC: Does working together put a strain on your relationship?

CN: I don't find it more difficult to work with my husband. We are more willing to tell each other the truth, even if it is ugly. With a stranger, you are afraid to hurt their feelings. It is all right to have disagreements. In fact it makes for a stronger relationship if it can survive both personal and business differences.

 

MC: What role did your parents play in your success?

CN: My parents gave me contradictory messages. My father always says, "If you are not working, then you must go to school, in order to keep in touch with society and not get left behind." On the other hand, when my parent's lives didn't go right, they would beat us up. I am the eldest daughter and I had to bear the brunt of their anger. My parents come from Northern China and they themselves are victims of child abuse, both physical and emotional. I never thought it was wrong of my parents to physically and mentally beat me up. I think a lot of my creativity came about because I had them for my parents. I became very strong and creative because the abuse stirred up a lot of emotions. After my divorce, I started to question my life and I have begun to see that not all my parents' ways were right.

 

MC: How did you deal with this?

CN: I had to go through a great deal of self-healing. Curt has been very helpful. He became my best friend, father and mother. He knows I need to be reassured and loved. I finally realized that some one can be nice to me. My parents do love me but they do not know how to express it in a way that I feel nurtured. Human beings need to receive love.

 

"When women have arrived professionally, men are very attracted to them. It is because these women have power and men like that." 

It was a long transition period and it didn't happen overnight. I had to slowly chip at my negativity, hurts and insecurities and peel it away layer by layer.

 

MC: What, in your opinion, is a successful woman entrepreneur?

CN: To me, she has to have a male quality--male energy. She functions not only on female energy which is soft and caring but also on male energy that is more assertive, aggressive and direct. She has to have a balance of both. Having only female energy makes it difficult for her to function in the working world. Take Madonna, for instance. She is very sexy but she has very strong male energy. She may bare her breasts, but her heart is very tough. She is so successful because she uses her masculine energy. Women don't utilize it because they are taught to be soft. When a woman is aggressive, she is called a "bitch". Look at the names they call Hillary Clinton. If men behave the same way, they are praised for it. That's why you need to have a thick face and not worry about what people say. You had better know that you are fair game when you compete with others. People are not going to be kind because you are taking something away from them. Resources are not infinite. If I have more, you have less. So when women are successful, some people are not happy and they attack their femininity to make them feel bad about being an effective entrepreneur.


Chin-Ning autographing her books in Beijing (Nov. 1993).


Chin-Ning relaxing (1976).

MC: Does that mean to be successful a woman has to forgo her femininity?

CN: You can be feminine but out in the working world, you had better know what you are doing because no one will give you a break just because you are a woman. You have to be tougher and professionally better than a man to stand a chance. If you want to play the "woman's game", then it is better to stay at home and let your husband protect you.

 

MC: Are you saying that it is all right for women to use their wiles to get their way?

CN: If you know how to use your feminine qualities and the man is a sucker, then go for it. It is a tactic. A smart woman knows that is the way to go about it. It means that she is sure of herself and knows how to use her feminine qualities to get what she wants. There is nothing wrong with that. It has got to do with how sure you are about yourself. It is a matter of how willing you are to express your opinion. "This is how I feel about it. You don't like it? This is still how I feel about it."

 

MC: What about men who complain that women who are assertive are a pain? CN: Men like these don't deserve a good woman anyhow. They don't want someone with a mind, so they are better off with a dumb blonde, as the Americans call it. When women have arrived professionally, men are very attracted to them. It is because these women have power and men like that. In my professional life, I find men expressing a great deal of affection because the attraction comes from the sense of wonderCAWhere did she get that much power?@ They want to know more about the person because they are attracted to that mystery. Men like to conquer. If you are strong, they want to have you as their prize.

 

MC: What you have just said would incur the wrath of the feminists.

CN: Every woman knows how to work in a man's world. If she knows how to utilize her femininity to get things done, fine. You can use what you have got to gain an advantage. It is not a crime to capitalize on it. Some feminists are rather extreme. But I don't feel it is wrong to be a woman. I like equality in business and employment opportunities. But I don't want to be a man. I want to be a woman but I want to beat the men at their game. I see them as competitors but not as men. So may the best person win.

 

MC: How do you see yourself?

CN: I am tough but I also have my vulnerabilities. I am sweet but I can be pretty nasty too. I am an ordinary person like everyone else except that I am more aware of my feelings and that of others; what works and what doesn't. I am constantly watching and learning. I learn so much every day, therefore I am never the same. I like the idea that I am improving every minute.

 

MC: Why do you think you are so successful?

CN: The greatest ingredient of my success is that I am an eternal optimist. I can be beaten but I will rebound with renewed hope. It doesn't matter how many setbacks and putdowns I go through In order to sustain your enthusiasm and competitive edge, you need more than brute force. You need that spiritual strength. People think that being positive means never feeling low. It is not that. It means that you have the ability to bounce back naturally. like a rubber ball. You don't have to force it.

 

MC: Who has made the most impact on your life? 

 

CN: It would have to be an Indian teacher who has since passed away. I knew him in 1979. He is a meditation master who gave me the gift to find the answers within myself: he presented me with the key to open up the knowledge inside. I realized that a nice person does not equate a good person. A lot of phony people act nice. I only understood how great my teacher was when I discovered how much I have grown.

 

MC: Would you say that women are disadvantaged because of their gender?

CN: I never like to differentiate between women and men. Being a woman is just a physical feature. We should compete on an equal footing because I don't believe that men are better or smarter. Maybe that's true in terms of physical strength. but when it comes to mental capacity, women are superior to men. That's because women are multitask oriented; women usually have to juggle many dutiesCwash, cook, take care of the children and husbandCand work as well whereas when a man goes home after work, he feels his job has ended. Women are more intuitive because they have learned the skill of communicating without words. They are more in tune with the unspoken message of a given situation. Women are programmed to be homebound. Therefore, they have a lot of catching up to do. They have to be educated, find the competitive niche,

 

"The greatest ingredient of my success is that I am an eternal optimist. I can be beaten but I will rebound with renewed hope no matter how many setbacks and put downs I go through."

be more sensitive and find out what their strengths and weaknesses are. Women who are capable learn to make ways for themselves.

 

MC: Have you personally experienced any discrimination being a woman and an Asian at that?

CN: I have a blind spot and that is, I don't see discrimination. I am a woman and an Asian, so I am supposed to have two strikes against me but I don't see it as that. I use my so-called liabilities as assets. I thrive on it. I wouldn't know how to compete as a man because I am not one. I do know how to compete using my feminine qualities in a man's world. Being Chinese is an asset. Compared to a Chinese- who is born in America and speaks perfect English with no accent. I think I am superior because I am the genuine stuff`.

 

MC: What about the "glass-ceiling" that is used to keep women out?

CN: Well, if there is one, I do not know about it. I am happy that some think it exists because I don't have to compete with these women anymore. I compete with the men because I do not see myself as being inferior to men. I feel I have something to contribute and my gender doesn't matter. If you think there is a ceiling, you will be stuck underneath it. If you go beyond that, you play the game above it. I don't waste my time on the glass-ceiling because it doesn't exist for me.

 

MC: So you think women are holding themselves back?

CN: Yes, absolutely. In order for discrimination to exist, you first have to acknowledge it. When you do, it becomes real and you feel intimidated. I like to be in the minority who have a different perspective, who see reality from an extraordinary point of view. When that happens, you behave differently from the rest. You are one above them.